As the Singaporean prime minister settles into his seat for lunch, I am fussing with my tape machines – two of them, just in case one fails. Lee Hsien Loong smiles faintly and says: “The NSA will give you a copy.”

当新加坡总理李显龙(Lee Hsien Loong)落座准备开始午餐时，我还在手忙脚乱地捣鼓自己的录音机——我带了两台录音机，以防其中一台出问题。李显龙微笑着说：“美国国家安全局(NSA)会给你一份谈话记录的。”

It is an unexpectedly subversive remark from a man I had expected to be the epitome of earnestness. The prime minister has a reputation as a cerebral technocrat, without a frivolous bone in his body. He even looks austere – tall, slim, grey hair and dressed in a dark suit and tie. So the biggest surprise, during our lunch, is how often Lee laughs. Over the course of the next hour, a variety of grim subjects provokes an incongruous chuckle or a broad smile – the Japanese occupation of Singapore in the second world war, the west’s mishandling of the revolution in Ukraine, China’s fear of separatist movements and the bankruptcy of Iceland. It is not, I conclude, that the Singaporean prime minister is a callous man. It is just that his way of taking the edge off the most difficult topics is to laugh while discussing them.

这是一句让人意外、具有颠覆作用的话，我本以为李显龙是位典型的严肃人物。这位总理先生有着理性技术专家的美名，全身上下就没有一根轻浮的骨头。他甚至连外表看起来都很严谨朴素——瘦高身材，灰色的头发，穿着深色西装，打着领带。因此在我们共进午餐期间，最让我感到意外的是李显龙经常面带笑容。在接下来的一个小时里，面对一系列尖锐话题，李显龙常常不是低声轻笑就是满面微笑，和话题本身显得有点不太协调——这些话题包括二战期间日本对新加坡的占领，西方对于乌克兰革命的处置失当，中国对于分离主义运动的担忧，以及冰岛的破产。我的感觉是，笑着谈论这些话题，并不代表这位新加坡总理先生是位铁石心肠的人。这只不过是他让一些棘手话题显得不那么尖锐的一种方式——边笑边讨论问题。

We meet at 11am in the Park Terrace of the Royal Garden Hotel in London. It is early for lunch but this is the hour his staff have carved out between other events on his visit to Europe: a nuclear security summit in the Netherlands, speeches, meetings with businessmen and Britain’s prime minister David Cameron, and, later that day, an event to celebrate Singapore Day in a park in east London, which 10,000 expats have registered for. With typical Singaporean thoroughness, the PM’s staff had emailed me the restaurant’s menu some days before our meeting and taken my order. We are positioned at a corner table, overlooking Kensington Gardens, with the sun streaming through the windows. Our first course – salmon and crab terrine – is brought promptly. Given the early hour, we both stick with water – although Lee, slim and fit-looking, does not strike me as a likely boozer.

上午11点我们在伦敦皇家花园酒店(Royal Garden Hotel)的公园露台(Park Terrace)餐厅碰面。这个时间对于午餐来说有些早，但这一个小时的时间是他手下工作人员在他访欧期间各项活动的间隙中挤出来的：他要参加在荷兰举行的核安全峰会，发表多个演讲，和商界人士以及英国首相戴维•卡梅伦(David Cameron)会面。当天晚些时候，他还要去伦敦东部的一个公园参加一场庆祝新加坡日(Singapore Day)的活动，登记参加此次活动的新加坡侨民多达一万人。李显龙手下的工作人员在我们会面几天前就将餐厅菜单用电子邮件发给了我，并记下了我点的菜，这体现出了新加坡人典型的缜密精神。我们被带到了位于餐厅一角的一张餐桌，能够俯瞰肯辛顿花园(Kensington Gardens)，并享受透过窗户倾洒下来的阳光。我们的第一道菜——三文鱼蟹肉酱——很快就端了上来。由于时间尚早，我们仍继续喝水——李显龙的身材偏于瘦削，看起来颇为健康，我觉得他不太可能是一个好酒之人。

. . .

. . .

Lee Hsien Loong, 62, became the third prime minister of Singapore in 2004 after an early life that had prepared him meticulously for the job. He is the son of Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore’s first prime minister and founding father. The younger Lee was educated in Mandarin Chinese and English and, like both his parents, went to Cambridge university, where in 1974 he earned a first-class degree in maths, and a diploma in computer science. That was followed by more than a decade in Singapore’s army, where he rose to the rank of brigadier-general. Then politics. Yet, while enjoying a gilded career, Lee has also suffered from the vicissitudes of life. His first wife died in 1982, shortly after their second child was born. He himself was treated for cancer in the 1990s.

今年62岁的李显龙于2004年成为新加坡第三任总理，他的早年生活为他担任这个职位做好了极其周密的准备。他的父亲是李光耀(Lee Kuan Yew)，新加坡的首任总理和国父。李显龙接受的是中文普通话和英文的双语教育。和他的双亲一样，李显龙入读了剑桥大学(Cambridge university)，并于1974年获得了数学一等荣誉学位以及计算机科学文凭。在此后的十多年时间里，他一直在新加坡军队效力，并升至准将军衔。随后他步入了政界。虽然有着镀金般耀眼的职业生涯，李显龙同样遭受过人世沧桑的打击。他的第一任妻子于1982年去世，当时他们的第二个孩子刚出生不久。而他自己也曾在二十世纪九十年代接受过癌症治疗。

At Cambridge, he was asked to stay on and do graduate work. I ask if he was tempted. “It would have been very nice,” he says looking wistful, “but you can’t really do that, can you? I went on a scholarship and I had duties at home.”

在剑桥期间，他曾被建议继续深造，完成研究生学业。我问他，当时是否动过心？他的脸上露出了眷恋的表情，答道：“那将是一件极好的事，但你不可能真正去做，不是吗？我在剑桥求学是用奖学金，而且我在祖国还有责任。”

I ask if he always knew he would go into the family business, into politics? There is a slight edge in his voice, as he replies: “No, I did not. It is not a family business.” With faint alarm, I recall that the PM has successfully extracted apologies and damages from media organisations, including the FT, for suggesting the Lee family has benefited from nepotism.

我问他，是否一直以来都深知自己将会继承家族事业，进入政界？他的声音中略有一丝锋芒，回答道：“不，我并不知道。这不是什么家族事业。”我脑中隐隐敲响了一记警钟，我想起了这位总理先生曾经成功地迫使包括英国《金融时报》在内的媒体机构做出道歉和赔偿，这些媒体暗示李氏家族通过裙带关系获利。

When he was prime minister, the older Lee had constantly emphasised Singapore’s insecurity – urging his fellow citizens to work hard and be vigilant. Since Singapore is a city-state of just 5.3m people – which became involuntarily independent only in 1965 when it was expelled from the Malaysian federation – such vigilance was understandable. But, since then, Singapore has enjoyed a long period of peace and ever-rising prosperity and now has one of the highest per-capita GDPs in the world. So I ask Lee if Singaporeans still need to feel insecure.

在李光耀担任新加坡总理期间，他不断强调新加坡的不安全处境——以此鞭策本国公民努力工作，保持警惕。由于新加坡是一个仅有530万人口的城邦国家——1965年新加坡在非自愿情况下独立，因其当时被驱逐出了马来西亚联邦——这种警惕性是可以理解的。但是自那以来，新加坡实现了长期和平，繁荣景象蒸蒸日上，如今新加坡已是全球人均国内生产总值最高的国家之一。因此我问李显龙，新加坡人是否仍然需要保持不安全感？

“Singaporeans generally feel more secure these days”, he says but then adds, with a slight frown: “One of our tasks is to remind them that this a result of a continuing act of will and an appropriate sense of insecurity is very helpful. You don’t have to be paranoid but you do have to take risks very seriously.” Taking the long view should remind Singaporeans to stay on guard, he says. “Not very many small states have great longevity, other than Venice, which lasted 900 years in one form or another.”

他说：“如今新加坡人普遍更有安全感了。”但他随后略微皱眉补充称：“我们的任务之一，就是提醒国人，当前的局面是在意志支撑下不断奋斗的结果，适度的不安全感还是很有帮助的。你不用变成一个偏执狂，但你确有必要非常严肃地对待风险。”他说，把眼光放长远有助于提醒新加坡人继续保持警惕。“没有多少小型城邦国家能够长期存续，不过威尼斯是个例外，这座城邦以这样或那样的形式存续了900年。”

One important way of ensuring security is to remain on friendly terms with the neighbourhood giants. Singapore is in the rare position of being regarded as a trusted friend by both China and the United States. The Singaporeans were early believers and investors in the Chinese economic miracle, and Chinese officials have mined Singapore for economic and political ideas. But Singapore also regularly plays host to the US navy. I ask him what China thinks of Singapore’s vocal support for a continued American military presence in the Pacific. “They don’t like it,” he replies evenly, “but they understand it.”

确保安全的一个重要方式，是与邻近大国保持友好关系。新加坡同时被中美两国看成是值得信赖的伙伴，这种情况非常罕见。新加坡人很早就对中国的经济奇迹充满信心，并且是中国最早的一批投资者，中国官员也常向新加坡借鉴经济和政治思路。但新加坡同样定期会迎来美国海军进驻。我问李显龙，中国对于新加坡口头支持美国军方在太平洋地区继续保持存在有何看法？他淡然地答道：“中方对此并不高兴，不过他们能够理解。”

Staying friendly with all the big powers is a smart strategy for Singapore, as long as peace prevails. But tensions have been rising in the region, particularly in a territorial dispute between China and Japan. Many western observers put the increase in tensions solely down to the rise of China. But Lee observes that Japan is also changing and that its government is asserting what it sees as “Japan’s nationalist rights”, particularly in its interpretation of history. “Questions have been raised over what is a definition of aggression so, therefore, since there’s no definition, did Japan commit aggression during the war?”

只要国际环境继续保持和平，与所有大国都保持友好关系对新加坡而言是一项明智的战略。但近来亚洲地区内部的紧张态势持续加剧，特别是中日两国因领土争端更是剑拔弩张。很多西方观察家将局势愈发紧张的原因单纯归结于中国的崛起。但在李显龙看来，日本也在发生变化，该国政府正在维护其所认为的“日本民族主义者的权利”，这主要体现在对历史的阐释上。“有人对如何定义侵略行为提出了质疑，因此，鉴于没有相关定义，日本在战争期间又是否犯下过侵略罪行呢？”

Singapore was occupied by Japan during the war, so I ask whether Singaporeans “generally think Japan did commit aggression”?

新加坡在战争期间曾被日本占领。因此我问道，新加坡人“是否普遍认为日本犯下了侵略罪行？”

The prime minister’s tone suddenly becomes less dispassionate. He leans forward in his chair and raises his voice, sounding incredulous. “Yes, of course, they came to Singapore and they killed many tens of thousands of people, nearly including my father, which fortunately didn’t happen otherwise I wouldn’t be here!” He guffaws. “But my uncle was taken away – never came back.”

总理先生的语调突然变得不那么平静了。他在椅子上将身体前倾，并提高了嗓音，听起来似乎对我的问题感到难以置信。“是的，当然，他们侵略了新加坡，残杀了数万民众，我的父亲也险些送命，幸运的是他活了下来，不然今天我也不会坐在这里了！”他大笑道。“但我的叔叔被抓走了——再也没有回来。”

Lee Kuan Yew’s style of leadership was that of a generation shaped by the bloody dramas of the second world war. His son is running Singapore in a different era and has to use a different style: “My father used to say, ‘Look at de Gaulle, once in a very long while he makes a statement and everybody pays close attention, otherwise he’ll remain silent.’ But that was then and this is a different world.” Having initially resisted using social media, Lee is now a convert: “My colleagues went on the internet, went on Facebook, and they found it helpful and they persuaded me that I should try, so I did. It’s quite fun provided you keep it in balance and ... from time to time slip in a serious message.” Earlier that morning, the prime minister had posted a photo he had taken of sunrise in London.

李光耀的领导风格属于被二战的血雨腥风塑造的那一代人。他的儿子在一个不同的时代条件下领导新加坡，因而必须采取一种不同的领导风格。“我的父亲常说，‘看看戴高乐(de Gaulle)，他每隔很长一段时间才发表一次公开讲话，每个人都会仔细倾听，其他时候他则保持沉默。’但那是在过去，如今的世界已经大为不同。”李显龙最初对社交媒体有些抗拒，现在已经转变了态度：“我的同僚们会上网，使用Facebook，他们觉得社交媒体很有帮助，并劝我说我应当尝试一下，于是我试了。只要你恰如其分，还是很有意思的……可以时不时地插入一条严肃消息。”今天早上，总理先生发布了一张照片，是他自己拍摄的伦敦日出。

Cultivating voters – whether in the flesh or on Facebook – is the kind of thing that democratic leaders do. But Singapore is an unusual democracy in one rather crucial respect – the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) has been in power since Singapore achieved self-government in 1959. Critics argue that although it holds regular elections, Singapore is effectively a one-party state. At the last general election in 2011, opposition parties notched up a record total of nearly 40 per cent of the vote. Even so the PAP won 81 of 87 seats. So can he envisage a day when the PAP is not running Singapore? “It could well happen,” he replies mildly. “I don’t know how it will work but it could happen.” A little later, he hints that the PAP is beginning to consider the possibility of one day forming a coalition government. “It may not be one team in, one team out, it may be more complicated – you’re getting used to more complicated than that in Britain now.”

争取选民支持——不论是活生生的个体还是Facebook上的粉丝——是民主国家领导人会做的事。但从一个非常重要的方面来看，新加坡并不是一个普通的民主国家——执政的人民行动党(People's Action Party, PAP)自新加坡1959年实现自治以来一直掌权。批评人士指出，虽然新加坡定期举行选举，但事实上是一个一党专政国家。在2011年举行的上一届大选中，反对党总计赢得了创纪录的约40%选票。即便如此，人民行动党仍然赢得了议会87个席位中的81席。因此我问李显龙，能否想象有一天人民行动党不再执政？他温和地答道：“这很有可能发生，我不知道这将以何种方式实现，但这是可能的。”过了一会儿，他暗示称人民行动党正开始考虑有朝一日组建联合政府的可能性。“届时或许不会是一帮人进去，一帮人退出，情况可能会更加复杂——你将会逐步适应比英国当前政局更加复杂的局面。”

. . .

. . .

A waiter arrives to serve the second course. We have both opted for the fish of the day, which turns out to be a delicious piece of grilled halibut. I tuck in but the prime minister leaves his largely untouched.

一位侍者走了过来，端上了第二道菜。我们都选择了当天供应的鱼，端到我们面前的是一块非常美味的烤比目鱼。我大快朵颐，但总理先生几乎没动自己的那份。

With the main dish served, I tack back to international affairs. In Europe, everybody is preoccupied by the crisis over Ukraine, so I wonder if it is having a similar impact in Singapore. “It’s not preoccupying people there but it is relevant to us. In fact, I made one Facebook post on that and to my surprise it got a lot of eyeballs. Because we are a small country, we depend on international law, treaties and agreements and the sanctity of these things, and, if they can just be overridden or ignored, well, then we are in serious trouble.” Ukraine, he points out, had had its territorial integrity guaranteed by an agreement, signed by Britain, the US and Russia.

随着主菜端了上来，我将话题转回了国际事务。在欧洲，每个人都高度关注乌克兰危机，因此我想知道，这一事件在新加坡是否也产生了类似的影响。“乌克兰危机没有引起新加坡人的高度关注，但它和我们确有关系。事实上，我曾在Facebook上就此发表过一条评论，出乎我意料的是，这条评论吸引了大量关注。因为新加坡是一个小国，我们依靠的是国际法、国际条约、国际协议，以及这些规则的神圣性。如果这些规则被践踏或者无视，那么我们将面临严重问题。”他指出，早前由英国、美国以及俄罗斯签署的一项协议保障了乌克兰的领土完整性。

I ask what he makes of the west’s reaction so far and whether it has been strong enough.

我问他，怎么看待西方到目前为止所做的反应，以及是否认为西方的反应足够有力？

“I don’t think you can do a lot more. I think you should have thought of that before encouraging the demonstrators on the Maidan.” So has the west been irresponsible? “I think some people didn’t think through all the consequences. You can understand the emotional sympathies: they share your values, they want to link up with you ... these are idealistic and enthusiastic revolutionaries, in a way, you think back to Les Mis. But can you take responsibility for the consequences and when it comes to grief, will you be there?” He answers his own question. “You can’t be there, you’ve got so many other interests to protect.”

“我不认为西方还能再多做些什么。我认为西方应在鼓励独立广场(Maidan)上的示威者之前就想到这一点。”那么西方的做法是否不负责任？“我认为，有些人没有通盘思考过可能出现的各种后果。这种情感上的支持可以理解：他们和你们拥有同样的价值观，他们想要和你们建立联系……这些人是充满热情的理想主义革命者，在某些方面，会让你回想起《悲惨世界》(Les Mis)。但你能否为所产生的后果承担责任？当悲伤的时刻来临，你是否能去到那里？”他回答了自己的问题：“你去不了那里，你还有很多其他利益需要保护。”

We are now on to the pudding. I enjoy my scoop of raspberry ripple ice-cream but the chocolate tart seems a little sickly for this time of the morning. Our specially-printed menus claim the prime minister has been served a pistachio crème brûlée. It looks more like a bowl of raspberries and strawberries. Either way, he is not touching his dessert, which looks enticing. I fight off an urge to reach across and grab a couple of his raspberries. Under most circumstances, this would be a faux pas but it would be a particularly gross move with a Singaporean, given that the government has spent a great deal of energy, trying to inculcate good manners and positive habits into the population. Over the decades, Singapore has waged a huge number of publicity campaigns, urging its citizens to – among many other things – get a haircut, not to push when getting on trains, and to avoid overloading their plates at buffets.

现在我们开始品尝布丁。我很喜欢我的这份树莓漩涡冰淇淋，但上午这个时点吃巧克力挞似乎有点太腻了。按照我们拿到的特别印制的菜单上所写的，端到总理先生面前的是一份开心果焦糖布蕾。但它看起来更像是一碗树莓加草莓。不管究竟是什么，李显龙都没有碰自己的甜点，虽然这份甜点看起来非常诱人。我忍住了想要伸手抓一把他的树莓的冲动。在绝大多数情况下，这都会是一种失礼的行为，但在一个新加坡人眼里，这种行为可能会格外令人反感，因为新加坡政府花费了大量精力，设法让本国民众培养良好的举止和积极的生活习惯。过去几十年间，新加坡开展了大量的公共宣传活动，敦促本国公民修剪头发，在乘坐轨道交通时不要推挤，在享用自助餐时不要将盘子装得过满——还有很多其他事项。

The prime minister is the patron of the Singapore Kindness Movement, which campaigns for better behaviour. But he has also talked of making Singapore less of a nanny state. When I ask if his country is “lightening up a bit”, Lee laughs – lightly. “I think the fairways are wider. It doesn’t mean there are no limits but it means there is more free play.” On the other hand, he does not regard the phrase “nanny state” as an insult. “When people say they don’t want a nanny state they are, in fact, in a conflicted state of mind. On the one hand, they want to do whatever they want and not be stopped. On the other hand, if something goes wrong, they want to be rescued.”

总理先生是“新加坡日行一善理事会”(Singapore Kindness Movement)的赞助人，该组织旨在倡导人们改善行为。但他也说过要淡化新加坡的保姆国家氛围。当我问到新加坡现在是否开始“略微放松一点”时，李显龙微微一笑。“我认为现在道路已经变得更宽阔了，但这并不意味着没有限制，而是表明人们有了更多的自由空间。”另一方面，他没有把“保姆国家”这个词看成一种侮辱。“当人们声称他们不需要一个保姆国家时，他们其实处于一种矛盾的心理状态。一方面他们希望能做自己想做的任何事而不受阻挠，另一方面，如果出了问题，他们又希望得到救助。”

. . .

一名侍者走了上来。李显龙点了早餐茶——毕竟现在还没到中午，而我则点了一杯意大利特浓咖啡。我们接着谈到了新加坡作为一个金融中心的角色。随着瑞士的银行保密传统受到了越来越大的压力，新加坡常常作为国际自由流动资金的新避风港被人谈起。我问到，新加坡是否注意到了资金从瑞士流入的情况？他以一种一反常态的含糊口吻答道：“我不知道资金来自哪里。我们的私人银行财富中心正在逐步建立。我认为其中或有部分资金来自瑞士地区。”

A waiter approaches. Lee orders breakfast tea – it is still not midday, after all, while I opt for a double espresso. Our conversation leads on to Singapore’s role as a financial centre. As the Swiss have come under increasing pressure over banking secrecy, Singapore has often been discussed as the new safe harbour for footloose international money. I ask if Singapore has noticed an inflow of funds from Switzerland. “I don’t know where the money comes from,” he says with uncharacteristic vagueness. “Our private banking wealth centre is gradually building up. I think some of it comes from the region.”

作为一个金融中心的地位可以成为巨大财富的来源，但同样可能带来巨大的不稳定性。在李显龙小口喝茶时，我问他是否担心再爆发一场重大金融危机。他坚定的说：“在某个时候会发生一些其他的金融危机。这是资本主义制度的固有本质。你只能寄望于自己事前建立了足够牢固的防火墙，以及危机本身是可控的。但事实上这非常难以做到。”

Being a financial centre can be a source of great wealth but also of great instability. As Lee sips his tea, I ask him if he fears another major financial crisis. “At some point there will be some other financial crisis,” he says firmly. “It’s in the nature of a capitalist system. You just hope that you have put in enough fire breaks, that it is manageable, but it is actually very hard to do.”

今天已经没有时间谈论金融危机了。现在已是中午，李显龙要前往伦敦的另一边参加活动。在我们准备结束访谈之际，我问他是否会怀念自己的隐私——并提到了巴拉克•奥巴马(Barack Obama)对于自己再也不能随意逛进一家书店的感叹。他合情合理地说道：“我并没有处在奥巴马的位置上。我走进一家书店，人们认识你，于是他们会走上来跟你打招呼，并和你自拍留念。但如果他们假装不认识你，你也会感到非常不安！”我们握手告别，他准备动身前去参加新加坡日的庆祝活动。在那里他会跟很多人见面，做出很多决定——此外还有很多自拍要拍。

The crises, however, are for another day. It is midday and Lee is due on the other side of London. As we wind up, I ask if he misses his privacy – and mention a lament of Barack Obama’s that he can never again just wander into a bookstore. “I’m not in Obama’s position,” he points out, reasonably enough. “I walk into bookshops. People know you, so they’ll come and greet you and take selfies with you. But if they just pretended they didn’t know you, you’d be quite upset too!” We shake hands as he leaves for the Singapore Day celebrations. There are people to meet, decisions to make – and many selfies to be taken.